Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind | E158

Steven Bartlett interviews Michael Pollan about the immersive journalism behind his six bestsellers, from buying a cow to expose the meat industry to taking psychedelics for How to Change Your Mind. Pollan explains how caffeine works by blocking adenosine and 'borrows energy from the future,' arguing there is no free lunch with any drug. He recounts his own ego-death and nature-connection experiences on psilocybin, and how they redefined spirituality for him as profound connection rather than belief in the supernatural. He discusses the promising but possibly overhyped clinical results for psychedelics in treating depression, addiction and trauma, framing them as breaking rigid habits of thought. The conversation closes on breath work, awe, breaking habits, and his next book exploring the mystery of consciousness.

• Pollan bought a real cow (number 534) and followed it through the industrial meat system for a New York Times exposé.
  00:08:13
• After his article published, the slaughterhouse cut ties and a Beverly Hills producer and a vegan radio telethon tried to buy and save the cow, but Pollan refused.
  00:09:47
• Caffeine works by blocking the neuromodulator adenosine, so you 'borrow energy from the future' and get rebound exhaustion when it wears off.
  00:18:35
• Pollan found giving up caffeine for three months harder than trying LSD, psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT.
  00:19:37
• On psilocybin Pollan experienced ego death, seeing himself explode into blue Post-it notes and merge into a Bach cello suite.
  00:33:35
• A Johns Hopkins study found attribution of consciousness to plants rose from 13% to 58% after a psychedelic experience.
  00:37:41
• Two-thirds of patients in many psychedelic trials lost their diagnosis, pointing toward potential cures rather than symptom management.
  00:43:20
• Pollan's next book investigates consciousness, asking why we have it and which other creatures possess it.
  01:00:28

• About 90% of people on Earth have a daily relationship with caffeine via tea, coffee, soda or chocolate.
  00:21:42
• A cup of coffee at noon still has a quarter of its caffeine circulating at midnight, and most caffeine researchers Pollan interviewed do not drink coffee or tea.
  00:23:44
• Coffee and tea drove the first widespread boiling of water, dramatically improving public health in countries that embraced them.
  00:26:18
• Some plants put a low dose of caffeine in their nectar to attract bees and improve the bees' memory, making them better workers.
  00:27:53
• A neuroscientist described the mind as a snow-covered hill where thoughts cut grooves, and psychedelics as a fresh snowfall that lets you take new paths.
  00:48:00
• Breath work was developed by Czech psychiatrist Stan Grof after LSD was banned in 1970 to induce psychedelic-like states.
  00:55:50
• Psychedelics may work by decreasing activity in the brain's default mode network, the seat of the ego and narrative self.
  00:57:23
• Pollan cites Andrew Weil's 4-7-8 breathing exercise as a fast way to lower stress and blood pressure before going on stage.
  00:59:26

Books, products and media the guest or host genuinely endorsed here — with the buy link.

Affiliate link — we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.