Dave Smith & Douglas Murray — Dave Smith is a libertarian stand-up comedian and anti-war political commentator (Part of the Problem podcast). Douglas Murray is a British conservative author and pro-Israel commentator known for books on Western civilization and immigration.
The gist
Joe Rogan hosts a head-to-head between two figures he expects to disagree, and they do, almost immediately. Murray opens by attacking the podcast world for platforming non-expert 'fringe' commentators like Daryl Cooper and Ian Carroll who he says soft-pedal Hitler and the Holocaust and tear down Churchill, while Smith defends them and rejects an 'expert class' gatekeeping public debate. The conversation widens into a marathon argument over Ukraine (NATO expansion vs. Putin's aggression), the Gaza war (the blockade, civilian casualties, Hamas's responsibility, and Israeli intent), Iraq and Libya regime change, and Iran. A recurring flashpoint is Smith citing officials and a four-star general's claim of a plan to topple seven governments, with Murray warning that naming neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz can feed antisemitic conspiracy thinking. It stays mostly civil and ends with both men acknowledging genuine disagreement and respect.
Big reveals
- Murray accuses Rogan of mainstreaming dangerous 'counterhistorical' figures by repeatedly platforming Daryl Cooper and Ian Carroll without historians to counter them.
- Smith concedes a right-wing reaction to woke excess has embraced 'racialism' and is 'flirting with Holocaust denial,' but insists Daryl Cooper isn't part of it.
- Smith argues American entry into WWI and the Treaty of Versailles were disasters and tries to 'blame everything on Woodrow Wilson.'
- Smith admits 'I will certainly concede that I am weird' about his obsession with politics, defending non-experts' right to speak.
- Smith says he watched the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office meeting from a trench on the Ukrainian front line during a recent visit.
- Murray argues Gaza was effectively handed a state in 2005 and Palestinians 'screwed it up' on October 7th, a framing Smith rejects.
- Smith presses Murray to admit civilian deaths in Gaza are 'intentional' under the law, comparing it to first-degree murder; Murray refuses, calling them collateral.
- Murray warns Smith that citing Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle by name risks feeding antisemitic conspiracy theories; Smith calls that a 'woke leftist tactic' to silence him.
Things worth remembering
- Murray says he personally attended an Intelligence Squared debate in London where Pat Buchanan was 'absolutely leveled' by Churchill historian Andrew Roberts.
- Operation Unthinkable was a real 1945 British war plan, ordered by Churchill, for a possible surprise attack on Soviet forces in Germany.
- Smith claims Zelensky said Ukraine received $70 billion while the US actually spent closer to $170 billion.
- Three US secretaries of defense (Gates, McNamara, Perry) and diplomat George Kennan warned NATO expansion would lead to conflict with Russia.
- Murray cites 'Moynihan's Rule': human rights violations occur in inverse proportion to the number of complaints, because only free societies air them.
- Smith cites a World Bank figure that Gaza's GDP contracted 40% in 1996, worse than the US Great Depression's ~30% drop.
- Smith notes Hamas never won a majority in any single Gaza precinct in the 2006 election, only pluralities.
- Murray notes the Maria Albright '60 Minutes' clip where she called 500,000 dead Iraqi children a price 'worth it' under sanctions.
- Murray argues the US is only a 'bit player' in Syria, where Russia and Iran were the decisive actors over 13 years of war.
- The episode ends with Rogan, Smith and Murray sniffing smelling salts, with Smith joking it's the 'cost' of Rogan advancing comedians' careers.