Dr. David Spiegel — Associate chair of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford and director of the Stanford Center on Stress and Health. A leading researcher and clinician on clinical hypnosis, he has published 13 books and over 480 journal articles and co-created the Reveri self-hypnosis app.
The gist
Andrew Huberman interviews Stanford psychiatrist Dr. David Spiegel about clinical and self-hypnosis as a tool for changing brain states to improve health. Spiegel distinguishes clinical hypnosis (which enhances self-control) from manipulative stage hypnosis, and describes the brain networks involved, including the dorsal anterior cingulate, DLPFC, insula, and posterior cingulate. He shares clinical cases and randomized trials showing hypnosis reducing pain, anxiety, phobias, trauma symptoms, and procedure times. The conversation also covers hypnotizability and the Spiegel Eye-Roll Test, EMDR, grief, mind-body control, and the role of breathing in shifting brain states.
Big reveals
- Spiegel's first conversion to hypnosis: he calmed a 16-year-old in severe asthma attack in five minutes, then a nurse filed a complaint over a nonexistent Massachusetts law.
- Hypnotized highly hypnotizable subjects on an imaginary culinary tour increased gastric acid secretion by 87% with no actual food eaten.
- A Lancet randomized trial: a self-hypnosis group cut pain 80%, used half the opioids, had fewer complications, and finished procedures 17 minutes faster.
- A Stanford study found hypnotizability has a 0.7 test-retest correlation over 25 years, making it more stable than IQ.
- Spiegel argues every dismantling study shows the lateral eye movement in EMDR adds nothing, and EMDR is essentially exposure therapy plus hypnosis.
- Spiegel reveals spectroscopy showing hypnotizability correlates with GABA activity in the anterior cingulate, a benzodiazepine-like self-medicating effect.
- Spiegel jokingly tells Huberman 'Yeah, you are' currently hypnotized, and reveals he routinely hypnotized groups of breast cancer patients collectively.
Things worth remembering
- Entering hypnosis is marked by turning down the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex, the brain's conflict detector, making people less distractible.
- Highly hypnotizable people show inverse connectivity between DLPFC and posterior cingulate, producing the dissociation that puts actions outside conscious awareness.
- Spiegel argues mental-state change itself has therapeutic potential, citing ketamine for depression and the way overnight reframing solves problems.
- State-dependent memory means hypnosis helps trauma patients because it recreates the dissociative state they were in during the event.
- The essence of trauma is helplessness, not fear or pain, and hypnosis works by restoring a sense of control.
- Roughly two-thirds of people are hypnotizable and about 15% are extremely hypnotizable; a third cannot be hypnotized at all.
- The Spiegel Eye-Roll Test: keeping eyes rolled up while closing the lids so you see more sclera correlates with higher hypnotizability.
- Spiegel cites that the average kid has watched 20,000 murders on TV by age 20, arguing against overuse of trigger warnings.
- Karen Parker's primate studies show brief, repeated stress (separation) inoculates baby monkeys to handle later stress with less cortisol.
- Cyclic sighing with longer exhales than inhales induces parasympathetic activity, which Spiegel now emphasizes in his hypnotic inductions.
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Reveri
David Spiegel (inferred)
“a tool that was developed by Dr. Spiegel, which is the Reveri app, R-E-V-E-R-I, the Reveri app is currently only available for Apple” — Andrew Huberman 00:02:35Find it on Amazon
Reveri
David Spiegel (inferred)
“Now we've developed an app, "Reveri," that can teach people and step them through, dealing with pain, stress, focus, insomnia” — David Spiegel 00:51:50Find it on Amazon