Exploding Kittens CEO Elan Lee walks Tim Ferriss through designing, testing, and selling their card game Coyote and what makes bestselling games.

Elan Lee — Co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens, the self-described number one independent game studio (60 million games sold), former chief design officer at Xbox; co-designed the game Coyote with Tim Ferriss.
Tim Ferriss and Elan Lee reveal the full two-year journey of creating Coyote, a casual card game described as 'rock paper scissors on steroids' where players play each other rather than the game. They break down the entire creative process, from janky Sharpie-on-blank-card prototypes to the breakthrough on a rainy walk in Toronto, plus the principles that separate hit games from failures. The back half is a rare deep dive into the business: how line reviews with Walmart and Target actually work, why 70% of game sales are in-person retail, how to find sales agents, deal structures, and social media marketing. Elan shares his testing philosophy (400 'kitty test pilot' families recording video sessions, judged on a single question: 'Do you want to play again?') and his core thesis that games should make the players entertaining, not be entertaining themselves. They close with concrete paths for aspiring designers via crowdfunding plus licensing to a publisher.
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Exploding Kittens
“This is the game. It is a card game. It's called Coyote. That name did not come easily.” — Tim Ferriss 00:02:37Find it on Amazon
Exploding Kittens
“My name is Alain Lee. I am the co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens. I believe we're the number one independent game studio in the world.” — Elan Lee 00:03:41Find it on Amazon
Exploding Kittens (inferred)
“I found this game, Poetry for Neanderthals, and holy [ __ ] had so much fun with that with my friends.” — Tim Ferriss 00:05:14Find it on Amazon
Justin Gary
“that led me to start listening to a podcast called Think Like a Game Designer with Justin Gary, which is outstanding. Recommend people check it out.” — Tim Ferriss 00:15:35Find it on Amazon
“If you haven't played, for everybody out there, if you haven't played Hanabi, go try this game. It is very special.” — Tim Ferriss 00:31:13Find it on Amazon
Raph Koster
“One is a Theory of Fun by Raph Koster. It'll outline all these fundamentals. It is the first game design book I ever read. And go read that book.” — Elan Lee 00:44:44Find it on Amazon
Karen Pryor
“It's called Don't Shoot the Dog. It is the best game design principle I have ever encountered in my life.” — Elan Lee 00:44:44Find it on Amazon
Tim Ferriss (inferred)
“in the 4-hour chef a million years ago, came out in 2012, which was actually a book about accelerated learning confusingly.” — Tim Ferriss 01:07:33Find it on Amazon
Exploding Kittens
“Number one is a game called Hurry Up Chicken Butt. Hurry Up Chicken Butt is a game I designed with my four-year-old daughter.” — Elan Lee 01:10:11Find it on Amazon
Exploding Kittens (inferred)
“Throw throw burrito is usually either number five or six and the rest are just totally random.” — Elan Lee 01:10:41Find it on Amazon
Tim Ferriss (inferred)
“For my very first book, 4-hour work week, I used Google Adwords to test the top, let's just call it 10 title and subtitle contenders.” — Tim Ferriss 01:32:23Find it on Amazon
Peter and AJ
“there is a podcast I quite like for game design. It's called Fun Problems. It's with Peter and AJ.” — Elan Lee 02:44:01Find it on Amazon